Design Challenge
I like to begin each episode with listener comments and questions. Most of the time it's comments, which is great. I feel like it makes a stronger connection between what we're talking about and what's going on in the shops and minds of those who tune in.
Another podcast that I listen to no longer does question and answer episodes. Instead, the hosts refer to it as Questions & Response, as one idea feeds off another and acknowledges that there most likely isn't a single answer to a question. Mostly just a collection of possibilities.
A sage once said, "Do not go to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes."
In this episode a reader sent in a photo of a walnut log that features figured grain. He asked what some options are.
At first, the three of us agreed that the board wanted to be door panels. I still think that door panels or small case sides are the best option. Certainly not the only option. We present a few other ideas. However, I'd like to know what others think could happen to this board.
Clamp Carts & Collections
John designed a clamp cart that echoes the look of a shop wall organizer that sits in the video studio. This concept lead to a discussion of the where one stores clamps: on the wall, on a cart or ... Again, there isn't a right answer. I don't think clamp carts travel around most home shops. You park them in one place. The cart allows easy shop rearranging, or moving for a cleanup session.
How do you store clamps in your shop?
Follow-up question: What would you consider as a starter set of clamps?
The clamp cart on the set of the Woodsmith Shop comes from this plan.
I believe most folk have a particular style of clamp or two that are used most of the time. For me it's a set of Dubuque Clamp Works aluminum bar clamps. Small F-style clamps take care of the little stuff.
Church Door Update
Logan's church doors are nearly complete. After a learning experience with the assembly, he's cutting and fitting the trim on the front.
After struggling with alternating a miter guage to make opposing miter joints, Logan borrowed a pair of sleds from a friend. This I believe is a good reason to invest in two miter gauges for a table saw. Have a solid miter gauge for crosscuts. Then have a few second-hand versions around to jig-up with when the need arises.
Sawmilling Wishes
It's been awhile since Logan spent some time milling. Though in fairness, he's been prepping his place for better log storage. Here's the log we talked about.
Transcript
Here's the full text of this episode.
Phil (00:20.684) Hey everybody, welcome to the ShopNotes podcast. I'm your host Phil Huber. Thank you for listening. Thank you also for all those people out there who are subscribers to woodsmith popular woodworking or shop notes magazine, or one of our online membership programs. It's what puts this show in front of so many people. The email address is woodsmith at woodsmith.com. If you have any questions, comments, or smart remarks,
On today's episode, we are gonna deal with several of those comments and smart remarks as we get started. We'll also talk about a viewer submitted challenge for some highly figured material that he has. We'll also take a dip into the world of woodworking related literature.
before checking in with Logan on his church door project, among other things. Speaking of checking in, we're gonna check in with one of our sponsors. This episode of the Shop Notes podcast is brought to you by Harvey Industries. Good enough is not good enough. See all of our new tools at harveywoodworking.com.
Phil (01:40.684) All right, we'll begin with comments, because that's a really good place to start.
John Doyle (01:45.582) That's where we get fired up. That's our hype.
Logan Wittmer (01:47.689) I like, yeah, is it? mean...
Phil (01:48.405) Yeah.
Phil (01:53.484) play the hype music, like enter the Sandman or something here. The last episode that I have comments for, got MUTiger83 writes, when it comes to hardware for a project, I guess I fall within a blend of John and Logan with a little of Phil thrown in. Not as cheap as Phil.
John Doyle (01:54.699) Yep, here we go.
Phil (02:16.908) but I don't want to be too extravagant. I also look at the purpose of the project, like John, where the determining factor is the longevity of that item that I'm building. If it's an heirloom item, then what's a few extra dollars for decades to come? Finally, just like I want my design build projects to be unique and to stand out, I also want my hardware to do the same, just like Logan. Thanks for all the wonderful topics over 233 episodes.
and I've already purchased my ticket for Woodworking in America 2025. Really looking forward to the whole shebang of a weekend with tours, classes, vendors, and meeting a whole lot of awesome people.
Phil (02:56.62) There you go.
John Doyle (02:56.972) That should be our slogan for woodworking in America. Come see the whole shebang. Right there, that's a promo. Cut that.
Phil (03:00.65) Yeah. Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (03:00.712) That's right.
Phil (03:05.772) Yeah.
Phil (03:09.132) Alphito158 says, HR told me to let you know that we don't use the term albino mahogany anymore. We now call it poplar.
John Doyle (03:17.836) Yeah, replied to that and I said, you should have said that the mahogany was grown in the mountains of Caucasus. Caucasus, Caucasian, the mountains of Caucasus. Is that right? Did I say that right? Yeah, easy for you to say.
Logan Wittmer (03:18.705) Wow.
Phil (03:31.552) Yep. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (03:32.892) Maybe. I don't know.
Phil (03:38.794) Right. Puppy Doc says, why do I picture the side of Logan's house facing the garage covered in a snowdrift style pile of sawdust of multiple colors, but mostly of ash sawdust? And for some reason, grass doesn't grow in that green space.
Logan Wittmer (03:55.689) Stupid fans not strong enough. I was thinking 22,000 CFM. It moves a lot of air. It doesn't move it very far though. It's like volume versus pressure. lot of volume, very low pressure.
Phil (04:12.012) Okay, I'll allow it.
Phil (04:20.01) And then this one was a delight and a little bit of a surprise. had Don Barton emailed us with a photo. He said, after listening to your podcast discussing wood character, I thought I would see if you had any suggestions for how to use this piece of walnut, seven inches wide, 41 inches long, half inch thick. The bottom portion is very loose.
for all the people watching the podcast on the radio, I will put a photo of this on the show notes page. What he has is a board of walnut that it appears to be sawn right through a crotch section of a log, right?
Logan Wittmer (05:12.305) Mm-hmm.
Phil (05:15.884) And I think the bottom portion that he says is loose is probably like a bark inclusion down in there.
or was a of a rotting section of the tree when it was cut. What's interesting is that the three of us had pretty much the exact same thought for what that board should become.
And I believe that it really, really, like you said, Logan, really wants to be door panels.
Logan Wittmer (05:55.255) I'll be honest though, I did kind of skip over the dimensions. Little narrow.
Phil (06:01.503) Okay.
Phil (06:07.276) Yeah, but it depends on what the project is. You know, like a seven inch wide door panel is probably looking at a 10 or 11 inch wide door, 12 inch door, depending on what your frame sizes are.
Logan Wittmer (06:21.062) 12 inch door, yeah, yeah.
John Doyle (06:28.97) And depending on how thick the piece is and the thickness of your door panels, you can always try to bookend, match it, resaw it, go with something a little bit wider if it's glue up.
Phil (06:43.018) I think with, if you did a small wall cabinet, you could use it as case sides too, kind of a Karenov style. Now based on that,
Logan Wittmer (06:54.234) Mm-hmm.
Phil (07:02.176) bark inclusion down there, either of you guys mess with that trying to stabilize it or would you just cut that off?
Logan Wittmer (07:08.859) Nope. Cut it off.
John Doyle (07:09.45) Yeah, especially because it's at the end. It's not like it's in the middle of the piece. I feel like it's going to want to split out.
Logan Wittmer (07:18.597) Yeah, now what's probably gonna happen though is you cut that off and like where that center of that crotch feather is is probably gonna have some forms of cracks in it. You know what I mean? Like it's gonna wanna come apart there. don't give me that look, John. Don't give me that look.
John Doyle (07:35.732) Like I didn't know we were going to be throwing out words like crotch feather during this episode. I was ill prepared, facially speaking to just like keep a straight face. All right. You got to prepare me. Yes, I'm sorry. I apologize.
Logan Wittmer (07:39.586) I mean, hey, you know, well, that's, that's on you, not on me. So, yeah. So like, I could see that they're potentially being a weak point in the center of that the whole way up.
Phil (07:42.06) the
Logan Wittmer (08:00.935) which if that's the case then maybe you let it split up that and then you take the two outside edges and flip them and glue them back together so then you have a book match slip match type thing going on but I don't know there's
Phil (08:19.648) Okay.
John Doyle (08:22.826) The other thing is visually, it looks like the figure in the board kind of goes diagonally up to where the cut of the board. So it's like, do you want to try to cut the board to bring it more straight up and down? Or does that matter to people? Do you want it to be symmetrical? Or yeah.
Logan Wittmer (08:36.485) Chup!
Logan Wittmer (08:41.56) I don't know.
Phil (08:45.484) I think if you did it as door panels and you cut them sequentially from it, then you could flip one of them and then they would kind of angle towards each other.
Logan Wittmer (08:56.835) Yeah, I mean the biggest issue here is that the sports only half inch thick.
So at that point, I'm probably cutting this into what, seven inch wide. So I'm probably cutting it into like 12 by seven boards and using them for like the tops of boxes or something. That's probably like box panels. That's probably what I'm but.
Phil (09:22.048) Okay.
Phil (09:26.293) Okay.
That's another, yeah.
Phil (09:36.682) The point is, is that there are still plenty of options for a board like this.
Logan Wittmer (09:42.373) Mm-hmm.
John Doyle (09:46.929) It's definitely a feature piece, though. I wouldn't just randomly put it into a large project. You're right. The rest of it's just normal walnut, and then here's a figured rail.
Phil (09:47.35) I think you.
Logan Wittmer (09:51.62) You're not gonna use it as a as a rail on this side of a cabinet or something
Phil (09:53.302) Ha ha ha.
Yeah.
Phil (10:01.036) I think what you could do is use it if you did like a shaker hall table and you used this as like three of the aprons, you know, the front and the two side aprons of a...
table and then that would be like a standout piece.
Logan Wittmer (10:28.587) shakers were known for their use of fancy figured woods.
Phil (10:32.204) Right, yep. Right. Yeah, there you go.
John Doyle (10:32.755) They were a very godly people. Or is it godly? I don't know. One or the other.
Logan Wittmer (10:35.001) Yeah.
Yeah, one of them. Yeah.
Phil (10:40.416) more of a charismatic shaker.
John Doyle (10:42.502) Yeah.
John Doyle (10:46.202) Evangelical Shakers. I believe they were.
Logan Wittmer (10:48.377) Yes.
John Doyle (10:51.74) Wait, did we just like upset another group of people?
Logan Wittmer (10:53.964) Yep, add it to the list. Add it to the list.
Phil (10:54.922) Yep.
Phil (10:58.764) throw it on the pile.
Anyway.
John Doyle (11:01.575) Clutch your pearls everybody, it's the Shop Notes Podcast.
Logan Wittmer (11:04.674) Yeah!
Logan Wittmer (11:09.828) Ha
John Doyle (11:10.641) Mm.
Phil (11:10.668) If you want to send in a photo of a design challenge that you have and want to hear a bunch of nonsense related to it, please send it to us at woodsmith at woodsmith.com. We'll be happy to include that.
John Doyle (11:20.955) Yes.
John Doyle (11:26.489) Let us roast your lumber.
Logan Wittmer (11:28.409) Yeah
John Doyle (11:35.143) It's least we can do.
Phil (11:39.564) Speaking of though, just today an article went live on the popular woodworking site about Logan's review of thermal wood.
Logan Wittmer (11:51.01) Mm-hmm.
Phil (11:53.952) You want to talk about that?
Logan Wittmer (11:53.989) That is very poetic, isn't it? Yeah, so I was, I don't know, maybe a year ago, was contacted by a company, by companies all the time, but contacted by a company up in Canada called Thermal Wood Canada that is thermally modifying material. And this is not a new concept. Thermally modified ash and maple have been around for a long
And the luthier industry has used thermally modified wood as a substitute on like lower end guitars and stuff like that for ebony. So basically this company in Canada, Thermal Wood Canada, they specialize and I think their main product is exterior lumber. So think of like,
decking and siding and stuff like that. Like, you know, nice decking, nice siding. So they're taking ash, maple, cedar, and they are sticking it into a vacuum kiln that's like a heat and vacuum. It pulls all the oxygen out of the kiln, bakes the wood at a super high temperature, but because there's no oxygen, it can't combust.
but it does something to the molecular structure of the wood that makes it super, super resistant to water, moisture. It makes it basically hydrophobic. Think of your yard when you have had rain for a couple of months and it's cracked and the dirt all of a sudden won't soak up water. It just runs off. That's exactly what happens to the fibers of the wood. I mean, it's a great product.
But they said, hey, you know what? We can actually do this same type of thermal modification on maple. And when you think of torrified maple, or most companies that sell torrified maple, it's a very walnut-y color, I guess. It's somewhere in between sun-aged cherry and walnut. It's that rich brown color.
Logan Wittmer (14:18.527) I think that Thermalwood Canada is dyeing their maple black first and then thermally modifying it so then they're baking it and it turns black as ebony. Like the only way that I could tell a difference, it doesn't have the same smell when you're cutting it. Ebony has a very...
I would associate ebony smell to like a chocolatey smell, but maybe that's just my association with the black dust. It has a kind of a sweeter smell. It doesn't smell like it. And on the like a larger piece, you can pick up the grain lines of the maple that they use for it. And you can kind of see a shadow of that grain. But it works almost identical
Phil (15:07.126) Okay.
Logan Wittmer (15:15.107) Ebony it's like as chippy as Ebony is it's a fantastic alternative so I had gotten these samples in and they weren't big samples I mean one of them was like a fretboard size for like a violin or a cello another one was you know maybe a six inch wide by foot long piece so very small pieces but a couple of issues back I did a
an article on inlaying with the Shaper Origin and I did curly maple and ebony, air quotes, for the inlay on this nautical star. The ebony was actually this thermally modified maple from Thermal USA. So it was super cool. Ebony is a Cides II species, I believe. So the export and import of it is regulated very heavily.
harvesting regular the harvesting exporting importing is all regulated so this is a really good economical and ecologically friendly alternative I mean ebony is last time I bought ebony it was a hundred and twenty dollars a board foot this is significantly cheaper so I don't
Phil (16:35.766) Yeah.
Phil (16:39.222) Does this stuff have a kind of a campfire smell to it when you're cutting it? Really? Because I've heard that from other, about other torrified products.
Logan Wittmer (16:44.938) No. No. Nope.
Um, no, uh, I don't know. I guess I didn't notice it. Um, I didn't notice it. So I'm not saying there isn't, but I did not notice it. So, um, I was trying to pull up the.
pricing because they call this their obsidian ebony I believe. I was trying to pull up pricing on it. I looked at pricing when I got the samples in and I thought it was very reasonable for what it was. Can't find it right now so if I find it I'll let you know.
Phil (17:21.932) OK. Yeah.
Phil (17:38.154) find it interesting about the whole process because you know we've seen the Japanese technique of scorching the outer fibers of wood. They've done that for siding on houses in Japan for a long time. We use it as a decorative... you've done that a couple of times in some videos and on TV show projects here.
Logan Wittmer (17:48.16) Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (17:55.893) Mm-hmm.
Phil (18:06.203) But the idea of roasting it enough that you can get that color all the way through is kind of interesting to me, especially since it seems like the difference between ending up with thermally modified wood and charcoal, which is made in a very similar way, is probably a very fine line.
Logan Wittmer (18:14.262) Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (18:27.155) It is. is. Yeah, it's the
temperature at which they bake it and the lack of oxygen. Where I think when they do charcoal there is a small amount of oxygen injected into the burn. This is not. So. But yeah, it was a very, very cool product. I remember them saying, because they do all, if I remember right, Thermalwood Canada does all of their own.
So they can do pretty much any size that somebody would want. It looks like they stock violin, cello, guitar, fingerboards. Yeah, so they are.
Thermally modified, torrified maple infused with resin. So there's a black resin that is infused in there. They're not as cheap as I thought. So a violin fingerboard is approximately 11 by two by five eighths of an inch. And they're 20 bucks Canadian. So I guess that's like $3 US, right? So.
Phil (19:44.192) Depending on tariffs, yes.
John Doyle (19:45.507) Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (19:45.748) Yes, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. So.
Phil (19:51.884) All right. Anyway, it was just kind of interesting that that came up at the same time. So there you go.
Phil (20:03.722) All right. was, this past year for the TV show, we did a couple of projects that were made from bur oak that you had supplied. And over the weekend I was reading, which I do periodically read through, the book Sand County Almanac by Aldo Leopold, who's a conservationist and forester.
in the early 1900s. Also from Iowa.
I he was trying to think now where he was from. Davenport? Burlington? Yeah. There you go. Anyway, he had a section here about, he lived a good chunk of time in Wisconsin, taught at the University of Wisconsin and had a place there, which you can still go and see. So he had a reading that I'm gonna read here from his section for April.
Logan Wittmer (20:46.303) Burlington.
Phil (21:08.902) Have you ever wondered why a thick crust of corky bark covers the whole tree, even to the smallest twig? This cork is armor. Burr oaks were the shock troops sent by the invading forest to storm the prairie. Fire is what they had to fight. Each April, before the new grasses had covered the prairie with unburnable greenery, fires ran at will over the land, sparing only such old oaks as had grown bark too thick to scorch.
Most of these groves of scattered veterans, known as oak openings, consist of bur oaks.
which I thought was just well written.
and interesting to note probably why they're found where they are in Iowa being a prairie state as we are.
Phil (22:03.124) Anyway, this was a little fun fact that I came across. I like his writing style, and it's really fun book to read.
Logan Wittmer (22:13.116) Got a really nice burrow clog that got dropped off last week. That's I haven't measured it. It's it'll fit in the sawmill for sure, but it's a big in. She's she's a hefty girl. I want to say it's probably 30 inches, so we're going to I'm going to try to do true quarter sawing on that one. See, I'm going to to split it with the chainsaw first before I quarter it. So. Yeah.
Phil (22:24.929) Yeah.
Phil (22:41.099) Okay.
Like, what do you mean split it with the chainsaw? Just write down, take like 45 minutes and okay.
Logan Wittmer (22:48.104) lengthwise.
Logan Wittmer (22:52.604) Yup. Yup. We're going to see. It might be. I, we, have one. I could do that. it just takes a lot of gas to do that, but it's like, I'm wondering if I like sort of curve on both ends, kind of pre-score it and then just start driving wedges. Maybe get the forks of the skid loader in there and start picking it up and bouncing around. See if I'd shake it bad boy apart.
Phil (22:57.076) Alaskan sawmillet.
Phil (23:20.428) Yeah, how does Burr Oak split? Like, could you just split it?
Logan Wittmer (23:24.094) I think I probably could. I don't know. I mean, I'm guessing at the center of the tree, there's it's probably pretty naughty. Like there's probably a lot of pin knots and stuff. So like you'll probably get into some squirrely grain. Outside's clean and clear. Like this is if it wasn't broke, it would be a veneer log, but nobody is veneering broke for a reason. No.
Phil (23:27.862) Go well.
Phil (23:44.97) Not yet.
Logan Wittmer (23:51.773) but it's a pretty good one. I'll have to run out and measure it when we're done podcasting.
Phil (23:57.642) Yeah, send a photo too and I'll put that on there. But yeah, it'd be cool to see if you could do it all Peter Folensby style, just wedge it apart.
Logan Wittmer (23:59.996) Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (24:05.755) Yeah. Let's start with my chainsaw.
Phil (24:11.02) All right, that counts. That's how the Pilgrims did it.
Logan Wittmer (24:13.361) Yep. I think so.
Phil (24:18.73) Have you done much sawing recently?
Logan Wittmer (24:21.124) I have done zero song this year, which is really driving me nuts. I was planning on doing another weekend, but my neighbor. Their daughter was graduating, so they had a graduation party, so they had a bunch of people parked over here and I'm not going to out sawmilling while they're having a graduation party. And then yeah, this this weekend is actually looking pretty good. These church doors are getting close where I might be waiting on some stain.
So it may be time to break out the milk, because I got a lot of vlogs to get through. The other issue is that...
Phil (24:58.465) Okay.
Logan Wittmer (25:03.518) stacking my lumber outside, you get that really gray weather checked look. It comes off, right? Like you run it through the planer, run it through the jointer, comes off. But a lot of people don't understand that. So they want like, they understand roughs on, but they don't understand like, just take a, take it through the planer and look fine. Um, so they want it to look nice.
So what I did last year, and this was kind of a experiment, and I'm gonna call it a success, is I milled a bunch of lumber in October, a bunch of walnut and some cherry. Some of those were from the Woodworking in America last year. Some of them were not, but then I stacked them in the storage side of my shop, right alongside the sawmill, stacked them, stickered them. Not a whole lot of airflow because it's in the building.
Phil (25:52.47) Okay.
Logan Wittmer (26:02.845) Now the building's pretty vented. Not a lot of airflow though. This last weekend, I stuck a moisture meter on them and they were at like 12%. I'm like, that's good enough for me. So I threw them in the lumber rack and they're perfectly clean. I mean, like not weather checked. Obviously they have been sent outside. They're not grayed. Looked like the day I saw them.
Phil (26:17.291) Wow. Okay.
Logan Wittmer (26:32.992) So I think what I'm going to do is if I can, try to like mill all my cherry at once, mill all my walnut at once, mill all my ash at once and get them all into their own individual stacks inside, either inside or outside under a cover. I've covered stuff in the past, but it's always kind of half-assed. I have a bunch of steel leftover from when they built the shop. So.
I'm gonna actually make some roofs for them to strap over top. Yeah, yeah, there's been a lot of other things that I've taken priority to milling. So unfortunately, it's a damn day job, just gets in the way.
Really annoying.
Logan Wittmer (27:29.457) But, not that far.
Phil (27:29.836) If you're looking to sponsor Logan Whitmer and release him from his corporate servitude,
John Doyle (27:33.809) you
Logan Wittmer (27:38.91) that'd wonderful.
Logan Wittmer (27:43.718) And then you know what? Then Jim wouldn't have to listen to me on the podcast anymore.
Logan Wittmer (27:50.428) Was it Jim? I don't remember if his name was Jim. Yeah, scream Jim. He's not listening anymore.
John Doyle (27:51.849) Yeah, Jim. Yep.
Phil (27:53.132) Yeah. Or you'd be able to talk up. You'd be able to.
John Doyle (27:57.168) What if he came back? He's like, maybe I should go back and check that podcast out give it a second chance and then boom Logan drops it on him
Logan Wittmer (28:00.988) Ha!
Phil (28:01.418) Yeah. Nope. Shots fired.
Logan Wittmer (28:05.94) John Doyle (28:07.079) Just got him back and then shoot.
Logan Wittmer (28:09.084) Mmm. Yep. Yeah. No, like honestly though, like the
John Doyle (28:12.231) well.
Logan Wittmer (28:17.948) I have one, I've had the itch pretty bad to get out and mill, but there was a lot of, I have like this 10 year plan for my property, right? I'm on year eight right now, so like we're getting close, but a lot of what I've been working on early this year was dirt work, brush mowing, moving stuff, and doing a lot of grading work around the place.
And a lot of the grading work is on the, or that'd the east side of the shop building. So I have this big flat gravel pad right now that's perfect for stacking lumber. So they're like, this whole thing has been around, everything I've been doing has been prepping to get through all, I probably have a hundred logs laying here. Yeah, yeah, it's been prepping to get through all of these logs that I have. So it's all been.
Phil (29:08.32) Wow. Okay.
Logan Wittmer (29:17.539) sawmilling adjacent, just not, you know.
Phil (29:26.572) Well, I mean that works too, because you got to have a place to put it without it just turning into a...
Logan Wittmer (29:34.265) what it was.
Phil (29:35.762) an auto boneyard of just stacked up logs.
Logan Wittmer (29:37.914) Yeah.
Yep, yeah, and let's be fair. The gnats this year have been insane and they bite. Like they're not like fruit fly gnats. They're like angry vampiric, yeah. So I'm hoping maybe a little bit warmer weather knocks them out. Although I do have a 22,000 CFM fan I can stick next to me as I'm milling.
Phil (29:52.022) They're mean.
Okay.
Phil (30:05.671) Hahaha!
Logan Wittmer (30:07.066) fly through this.
Phil (30:13.804) There you go. John, saw you working on a clamp cart design earlier this week. You want to talk about that?
John Doyle (30:18.449) Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, I'm working on it's an unholy offspring of the shop organizer that I did for that was a woodsmith project, right? And then we did it on the TV show and it hangs in the video studio now. And then we have a clamp card in there too. So trying to come up with.
Phil (30:32.683) Yes.
John Doyle (30:46.856) It's like a combination one side, like a workstation, a small clamp holder, and then a spot for your nailers and drills and glue and odds and ends stuff. And then on the backside, room for longer clamps. And then throw it on some casters and wheel it around. So getting weird. See what we can come up with. But that's a Shop Notes project.
Phil (31:09.504) Mm-hmm. Yeah.
John Doyle (31:14.151) That's kind of our sandbox that we get to play in, so why not come up with some fun shop projects?
Phil (31:20.33) Yeah. The clamp cart that we have, actually did on the TV show years and years ago. So it's been around the block quite a few times and it's great for holding clamps, but not much else. And we've kind of like piggybacked a bunch of glue bottles and brushes and you know, even small bottles of CA glue and stuff like that. And it just ends up looking a little cluttered and
John Doyle (31:25.661) Thank you.
John Doyle (31:48.967) Yeah.
Phil (31:51.5) I don't know.
John Doyle (31:52.327) Yeah, it's kind of become a rat's nest of clamps and just a dump and ground, so it's a good time to kind of re-evaluate.
redo it, so get organized.
Phil (32:08.352) Right, and I was looking at it as, you know, how single purpose do you want a shop project like that to be? Because I think it's, you know, depending on your shop size or setup or what you're doing, having a cart that just holds clamps can be effective. But a lot of times it's also handy to...
have a place for like your glue bottle, like you said, your nailers to live because you're going to use that during assembly anyway. So then that stuff doesn't have to be on your bench or sitting on the floor while you're trying to assemble a project.
John Doyle (32:47.869) Right. Yeah, it's kind of nice to have dedicated kind of like little staging areas for the different processes that you do in the shop. Maybe like the clamp assembly type like staging. This would be like a kind of a staging cart. You know, like maybe something for like finishing that you could roll in and out depending on what your workshop, you know, setup is. But so just find it helpful.
Logan Wittmer (33:16.502) I've always thought it would be good. Maybe this is part of what I put in my outfeed table when I start working on that. But like I always thought it'd be good to have like horizontal clamp storage like that slides under an assembly table. You know what I mean? So like thinking of like Dylan's giant one man assembly table thing. Like if that had legs and you had
Phil (33:34.613) Okay.
Logan Wittmer (33:44.888) storage underneath for like pipe clamps and F style clamps and stuff and they could slide in and out because it's like right there's where you use them. Like let's call a cart what it is. It's a horizontal surface that you're to stack crap on anyways. At least this one has a purpose, right?
So.
Phil (34:06.262) think the trick on that is how, what are you putting the clamps in to hold them horizontally? Are you creating, yeah, right. You could do it as PVC pipe and then just have these sleeves that you're inserting the clamps into.
Logan Wittmer (34:14.168) PVC pipe.
Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (34:25.837) Yeah, I will say like I've been super happy with in my shop. just have them mounted on the wall on clamp racks, kind like we have in the big shop. And to me, that's so convenient. I built, we did the, did we do that cart that's on the set? Is that the same one that I built and painted blue a couple of years ago?
Phil (34:49.579) Yes.
Logan Wittmer (34:51.296) So I built that in the, with the intent that I was gonna put my clamps on that and stuff. I'm like, I don't know. It just was, as you said, it ends up being a rat's nest. You kinda roll it around the shop. It's great in theory, but then where does it live in the shop? Where do you push it out of the way to? And.
You know, knowing full well that I have filled up a 1600 square foot shop, like where do you push that? Where do you push it to?
Phil (35:26.422) Right, well, even John and I were debating that when he was, he had asked me about the size of casters to put on the cart. Cause our clamp cart now has, I don't know, what are they like three inches or something like that?
John Doyle (35:37.7) I'd say maybe even two inch. They're pretty little. They're little guys.
Phil (35:40.14) They're pretty small. Yeah. And then a couple of our other carts have probably our standard four inch casters on. And it's like, do you have a clamp cart?
Because the presentation story of it in a magazine is really cool because we'll say, hey, your clamp cart can just live in the corner or whatever, and then you just wheel it over whenever you need to assemble something. And the truth of the matter is, is that thing just kind of gets parked. It's about as mobile as a mobile home.
Logan Wittmer (36:09.376) and never moves.
Phil (36:14.026) And the only reason that you have wheels on it is to pull it out so you can sweep behind it and then push it back in.
John Doyle (36:23.291) The other thing too, it gets way heavier than you think it would. And it's not like you're off-roading with this car, but it just, maybe some larger casters would help make it easier to wheel around and then you would pull it to different areas of the shop. I don't know. So something to consider.
Logan Wittmer (36:40.245) Yeah, like there has to be some type of formula, right, on the relationship between caster size and load and how easy it is to move. Because you put 200 pounds on a cart with two inch casters versus eight inch casters, way easier to move the eight inch casters around.
So like, I'm thinking of like those giant casters we put on that garage cart we've just built on the TV show. Those things are super nice. Like they're kind of impractical for a lot of stuff because they're so big. But man, you could put 2000 pounds on those and roll them around the shop. Whereas how many times have you had like the little, I even the little steel casters where you're rolling them and all of a sudden you hit.
John Doyle (37:06.715) Mm-hmm.
Phil (37:19.072) Right, that's true.
Logan Wittmer (37:27.382) a screw that's laying on the floor and it just skids to a halt, you know?
John Doyle (37:33.401) Yeah, here it's the little drops of glue that dried to the floor and trip you up.
Logan Wittmer (37:36.81) Yep. Yep.
Phil (37:43.436) That would be my question for listeners and viewers is what's your preferred clamp storage method in your shop? Do you have wall racks or are you putting the clamps on racks but just on other fixtures, you know, like the back of your workbench or connected to your table saw or do you have it as a cart and what kind of cart do you have? Because I know there's, you know, one popular traditional style is like a big A-frame clamp cart. Perfect.
if you have a lot of long bar clamp kind of things.
And related to that, think a lot of our clamp cart designs, we've tried to be pretty universal in that when we show it in photos, we're showing it with bar clamps and pipe clamps and hand screws and spring clamps and C clamps and all that kind of stuff. And I think folk mostly have a lot of one type or the other.
and to try and show or design a clamp cart that has specific sections for specific types of clamps is not necessarily practical.
in spite of how visually appealing it can be.
Logan Wittmer (39:01.526) If you guys were to pick one style of clamp, what are you picking?
John Doyle (39:07.818) I kind like the aluminum, what are they called, bar style. Are those the ones from Dubuque? Yeah, that's kind of the ones I prefer or grab over some of the other clamps that we have around. I use the shorter F-style clamps a lot.
Phil (39:11.946) The bark lamps? Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (39:15.466) Yeah, those are the Dubuque ones, yeah.
Phil (39:15.563) Yes.
John Doyle (39:30.937) foot to six inch style.
Phil (39:37.792) Yeah, in my shop I have several three foot and four foot of the aluminum bar clamps. And I kind of wish I had some two footers, like a set of the, probably four of the two footers. I ended up getting the three footers, because it's like, if I need them for shorter, then these will work. But there's been a lot of times where you're gluing up something smallish, where the two footers would be more practical.
But then yeah, like John said I have some F style ones in the shorter shorter lengths
Logan Wittmer (40:16.135) I don't actually have any of those bar clamps. Like I have, I guess I have four of the nice big Bessie ones like that are I beam style, but like those are just, they weigh like 90 pounds a piece. Like you only get those out when like your mallets not working. That's when you get those big clamps out. But I, I I'm a huge fan of the F clamps and I actually really like parallel clamps too. I, but.
Phil (40:26.995) Okay.
Phil (40:31.083) Right.
Phil (40:34.634) Yeah. Right.
Phil (40:44.927) Okay.
Logan Wittmer (40:46.613) They have to be the woodpeckers ones. The Bessie's are fine. Like, I like the Bessie's. But the woodpecker's ones, the handles turn 90 degrees. You pull the handle, it turns 90 degrees so you can crank the crap out of something. I love-
Phil (40:59.803) okay.
Phil (41:04.908) So it turns almost like into a Tommy bar kind of thing then.
Logan Wittmer (41:08.629) Yeah, does, yeah, 100%. Yeah, and we've had those reader tips all the time where it's like, it's true, hold the handle, stick screwdriver in it. That's what you're doing, but with the handle. They do, I don't think you can get as much, saying this, knowing full well that our line is, you don't need that much pressure as you're clamping. Your joinery sucks if you need that much pressure. But I feel like,
Phil (41:16.372) Right. Yeah. Okay.
Logan Wittmer (41:36.053) They flex, the parallel jaw clamps I have flex a little bit more than my F-style clamps do. I have some really nice Bessie's and I have some of Woodpecker's F-clamps as well. I do find that the more and more I have tendonitis issues, the harder the F-clamps are for me to tighten down.
Phil (41:42.368) Okay.
Phil (41:58.783) Okay.
John Doyle (42:04.736) I was thinking about this the other day. If someone were just starting out and we're working and I know clamps can get really expensive when you're getting all different varieties, would you suggest they start with pipe clamps just because you can kind of get the little pipe clamp kit and put them on any size or couple pipes together? No. See, I don't like them either. And they're big and heavy and leave black marks. But it's like it'd be a lower entry point, I guess, if you're
Logan Wittmer (42:24.71) stupid. I hate them. Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (42:31.698) Nope, go to Harbor Freight, the Harbor Freight clamps are, they're great. Like they're good clamps for the price. Like, and you don't really ever need clamps that long. Like, we have a couple set of eight footers and it's, I mean, when you need them, you need them. But you only need two, you don't need more than two. So, ratchet straps work great as clamps too. I just did that with these doors.
John Doyle (42:38.935) us.
Logan Wittmer (43:01.992) So.
Logan Wittmer (43:06.664) Yeah. Yep. I, yeah.
Phil (43:07.372) All right, that's a follow-up question. What's a clamp starter kit? Based on what you know now, listeners, what would you have as your clamp starter kit for somebody starting out with woodworking? I think there's probably six or eight different paths for sure that you could take on.
Logan Wittmer (43:14.93) Yeah.
Phil (43:33.054) and it's entirely subjective, everybody's wrong and right at the same time.
Logan Wittmer (43:37.212) Yeah, yeah, actually, you know, now that I think about that, I do have a bunch of the Pittsburgh aluminum bar clamps. I don't use them ever. They're probably down in the basement shop still, but I never use them, but I do have those.
Phil (43:44.632) yeah.
Alright, back in the Disney vault.
Logan Wittmer (43:52.072) Yeah, yeah.
Phil (43:58.944) Alright, let's wrap up this episode with an update on your church doors, Logan.
Logan Wittmer (44:06.248) God, I'm hoping by the time that this podcast airs these SOBs are installed. I'm working on the trim right now. The trim is going a lot slower than I thought. I mean, if you think about it, you're like, I'm just miter and trim pieces, gluing and nailing them on. Well, yeah, but when you're trying to make your miters match up to parts that might be a degree off, like they're not perfectly sitting, the rails and styles aren't sitting at.
perfectly 90 degrees or maybe like 89 or 89.5 and then stuff starts getting off. I have like eight hours in this trim already. But I did remember my buddy had, so I was cutting them all with my miter, I was cutting all the trim with my miter gauge, which is really obnoxious because you gotta flip it back and forth from left to right. And I have the nice SawStop Revolution where it,
Like you can get it down to like tenth of a degree. So it's super easy to get it set to where you want. So that's not the issue. It's just the obnoxious part of flipping it back and forth to cut left and right hand 45s.
I was like, you know what, I have a buddy that went down this rabbit hole of doing segmented turning work. think he has a set of, Woodpecker sold a set, or they still do sell what's called their, God, it's like their Accu Angle Miter Sled something or other. Accu-Set Miter Sled, I'll find it. Anyways, it's basically.
two table saw sleds, you could buy the left or the right, or you could buy both. My buddy had both of them, the left and the right. They have fences. So basically it is a cross cut sled, but each one has a miter gauge on it, which works out fantastic. So I went and grabbed that last night from him, set it up on my saw. I had it just as miter bars for my saw, which, whatever, it's fine. But it made cutting these angles
Logan Wittmer (46:18.002) so much faster. I did more trim work this morning before lunch than I did all day yesterday. yep, so I'm hoping by tomorrow afternoon I am staining them and then I'd like to get them installed before the Grizzly tent sale. It may be after the Grizzly tent sale just because one of the guys wants to help. So we might have to wait until he's back in town.
Log story short, I'm not going into business making church doors.
John Doyle (46:52.886) It's a one-off.
Phil (46:54.604) Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (46:54.642) Yep.
Phil (46:59.254) Now remind me, are you doing casing? Is there a jam already that you're fitting these to or are you making a jam?
Logan Wittmer (47:05.412) I'm making a jam. It's already done. All it is, I mean, it's a four-sided jam header, two sides and a threshold. It's done. It's rabid. It gets screwed together. I'm leaving it unassembled until I get there and then I'll assemble it. Yeah. One of the big things, I'm waiting on the handle still. So it's like, don't want to install the doors till I have the handle.
The hinges showed up the other day, the deadbolt showed up, the stays showed up. Yeah, it's just, kinda gotta wait for that handle to show up.
Phil (47:48.716) All right, closing in on the end.
Logan Wittmer (47:52.134) Getting there.
Phil (47:53.9) Speaking of closing in, that wraps up another episode of the Shop Notes Podcast. Thanks for listening everybody. If you have any questions, comments, or smart remarks, you can put those in the comment section. Remember that the podcast on YouTube is moving to its own channel. At Shop Notes Podcast is where you'll find it on the YouTubes and you could put your comments there. Send them to us in an email, woodsmith at woodsmith.com. This episode of the podcast is
Brought to you by Titebond. You want a glue that you can trust and fortunately, Titebond has the glue you need to get the job done with confidence. From interior glues with strong initial tack and short clamp time to exterior glues with exceptional strength and water resistance, look to Titebond, the right glue for your next project. For more information, visit Titebond.com. That's it. Bye everybody.
Switchable Magnet
Bessey Bar Clamps
K5 Pocket Hole Jig
